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#161
Dive buddy
mac1954 - 7/20/2015 2:16 PM
Category: General
Replies: 46

Hi, it’s been a while. I was just looking at the forums and it seems there is a lot of people looking for buddies for straight forward dives, would it not be better to dive alone than not dive at all?
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RAWalker - 7/20/2015 4:16 PM
Diving solo has far greater risks even if the proper training and redundant gear selection are acquired. So the question becomes even with the training and equipment.... Am I ready and willing to assume the risks?
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LatitudeAdjustment - 7/21/2015 6:24 AM
I’m a photographer so I’m usually solo even if I entered the water with a buddy. We tend to be focused on the subject and not where our buddy is and in NJ they may only be a few feet away and already out of sight.

Are you equipped to bail your self out, two line cutters in case one arm gets tangled, pony bottle, does someone know where you are and will call 911 if you don’t report in.......?

Even then there are dives I won’t do solo, high surf, changing currents, high boat traffic. You really need to think ahead, not after it hits the fan.
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RAWalker - 7/21/2015 9:14 AM
Mac,
You are so wrong! Beyond just the redundant gas source and buoyancy control with a second diver you get a second set of arms, legs and a second mind to help when things go south. Even with the effects of narcosis either of you and your buddy may be able to rescue the other. When you get to a point in a solo dive that you need rescuing chance are much greater that you will not be able to effect the task.
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mac1954 - 7/21/2015 11:30 AM
There is no reason why a diver should need rescuing by another diver. A diver should never become so narced that he needs the assistance of another diver to return to the surface. Why would you need a redundant air supply? Why would you use all of your air supply? Why would you get to a point when you need rescuing? , why would you need more than 2 arms or 2 legs, in fact 1 arm or 1 leg is enough for some divers! The only reason a diver may need assistance is a medical emergency, heart attack or something. But that has nothing to do with diving practices,
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John_giu - 7/21/2015 12:05 PM
Well, I guess I know who I WONT be diving with.
I cant imagine anyone arguing against this long established norm of SCUBA.
While its true you are likely not much safer and maybe at greater risk diving with a boat load of Yahoos,
if diving with a well healed buddy of equal competence, diving with in both your experience and within
reasonable limits you are MOST CERTAINLY SAFER.

I would argue there is evidence of more fatalities of solo divers, although I would need to search out the statistics. Anecdotally, there are many "I saved my buddy" stories to be found.
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RAWalker - 7/21/2015 1:18 PM
Mac, Stop! think! You are now cementing my position.
Medical emergencies can and do happen without warning and it does have to do with diving practices.
Narcosis often happens without warning to experienced divers at depths that they have been to many times and the extent of impairment can not be predicted. You might not need more than 2 arms and legs until yours are impaired by a condition beyond your control.
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Eric_R - 7/21/2015 1:30 PM
There should never be a straight forward dive. Every dive presents different scenarios even if you have done the location before. Weather can change and so can people. For me I not only like having a buddy to share the experience with but like knowing there’s somebody that can help if something beyond my control happens.
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tardmaster - 7/21/2015 2:29 PM
wow.......ego will kill you just as easy as panic will. Let me know how that dive to the Titanic goes, lol.
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mac1954 - 7/21/2015 2:48 PM
John why do you think your safer with another diver in the water? What are you safer from? You may feel more secure, but that’s a false sense of security. There is no evidence that there are more fatalities with solo divers, the opposite is true. All commercial diving is done solo, the standby diver is never in the water. As for being reluctant to dive with me that’s a personal choice, the wrong one I might add. Eric [ straight forward dive ] was a bad choice of words, all dives are different but your decision to dive with a buddy to share the experience is a social one, not a safety one. RA, if you have a medical emergency underwater 99% of buddies are not going to be able to help, it’s just bad luck. As for narcosis if you have all ready convinced yourself that your going to be narced before you dive, then your going to be narced.
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mac1954 - 7/21/2015 3:05 PM
Tardmaster is that the best you can come up with, ego has nothing to do with it, and sarcasm is a very poor argument.
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RAWalker - 7/21/2015 4:47 PM
Mac,
I’m an active Instructor and for all intent I often dive alone. I’ve been trained as a solo/self reliant diver and I know factually that a buddy is a safety device among other things and not just a social choice. As for the percentage of diver able to help with a underwater medical emergency. The first step is to get the diver on the surface. Then nearly 100% of divers with a Rescue rating or higher and quite a few without that experience would still be able to assist with a medical emergency at that point.

I know a large number of solo divers but I must say that most would not even attempt to convince others that their choice to dive solo isn’t a higher risk than diving with a experienced buddy. I’m sorry to hear that you believe in that delusion. It’s your choice but it is your life but please stop trying to convince others that you are not delusional. Tardmaster is correct your ego will kill you and a buddy will not be there to save you.
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tardmaster - 7/21/2015 5:00 PM
From RAWalker: It’s your choice but it is your life but please stop trying to convince others that you are not delusional. Tardmaster is correct your ego will kill you and a buddy will not be there to save you.

"BOOM", (as RAWalker drops the microphone and walks off the stage, LOL !)
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RAWalker - 7/22/2015 2:01 AM
I don’t want anyone to think there is any debate about this subject. I’ve never felt compelled to actively moderate a forum before but in this case I feel strongly to advise our community that Mac’s opinions go against those of the most well thought out opinions on the subject. Simply stated Solo diving does present divers with a higher risk than those who adhere to the buddy system. With proper training and redundant equipment some of those additional risks can be mitigated. I have reported this thread for inaccurate information and am awaiting response as to further action to be taken. I personally favor deleting this thread for safety.
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LatitudeAdjustment - 7/22/2015 5:37 AM
From mac1954: Why would you need a redundant air supply? Why would you use all of your air supply? Why would you get to a point when you need rescuing?

Ever had or seen an O-ring blow? You won’t make it to the surface before the tank reaches empty. a second air source will let you take your time and do your safety stops.

On a Florida wreck trek a diver with thousands of dives made a rookie mistake and her tank fell landing on the 1st stage, it looked okay but on a later dive the reg hose fitting parted inside the wreck and all of her air was gone in seconds. She wasn’t carrying a pony but another diver who we kidded about being overdressed passed her his long hose on a sling bottle and she finished the dive.

As for being narced, on my first trip to the tropics in 1971, we were diving a wall in Bonaire, this was before depth gauges and I think I was still using a J-valve and no SPG, I could still see the surface so I couldn’t be that deep, right? My Ikelite camera housing was being a PIA, the controls wouldn’t move, the shutter was stuck in and I was too narced to realize I had slipped down the wall past the housings 130’ limit to 170’. A DM pounding on his tank and pointing up saved the day. BTW, the DM was Ebo, Bonaire’s 1st local DM, there are a few reefs there named after or by him.
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Eric_R - 7/22/2015 6:24 AM
From mac1954: The only reason a diver may need assistance is a medical emergency, heart attack or something. But that has nothing to do with diving practices,

It is when your underwater.
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 6:47 AM
Eric a person could walk out of a doctor’s office with a clean bill of health and die from a heart attack hours later , safe diving practices are never going to prevent some accidents.
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RAWalker - 7/22/2015 9:05 AM
From mac1954: a person could walk out of a doctor’s office with a clean bill of health and die from a heart attack hours later , safe diving practices are never going to prevent some accidents.

This is the only part of this debate you are correct about.
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RAWalker - 7/22/2015 9:16 AM
Mac,
If you need the statistics (because you are again wrong) they are compile by Divers Alert Network(DAN) you can contact them at DAN.org
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Eric_R - 7/22/2015 10:14 AM
From mac1954: Eric a person could walk out of a doctor’s office with a clean bill of health and die from a heart attack hours later , safe diving practices are never going to prevent some accidents.

Were not discussing above water accidents.
If you have one underwater without a buddy do you really think your chances of survival are the better then if you had one?
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 10:56 AM
If I loose consciousness I will have no chance with or without a buddy, if I remain conscious I hope I make it back to the boat.I also hope I get a warning before I get in the water. fortunately in the 45 years that I have been diving I have no experience of a diver becoming fatally ill on the bottom. I have no answer to your question.
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 11:02 AM
No point talking here as the posts are been censored,
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tardmaster - 7/22/2015 11:11 AM
From mac1954: If I loose consciousness I will have no chance with or without a buddy, if I remain conscious I hope I make it back to the boat.

Swallow your ego and realize you may be wrong sometimes. In this thread have been wrong more than once. I’m a diver at the Georgia Aquarium. We take escort guest divers in the main tank every day. We had an incident with a guest who went into cardiac arrest underwater and lost consciousness. He was surfaced by our safety divers and thanks to the efforts of our dive team (who had to shock him SEVERAL times) along with the paramedics saved that gentleman’s life.

I welcome your opinion and do not want to see you cancel you membership, but remember....opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one and they all stink. What I (we) don’t appreciate is you coming on here and ranting that you asshole is the only one that doesn’t stink and we are all wrong for having a different opinion.

State you opinion all you want, but don’t criticize others for having a different one. If you don’t want to play by our rules, then by all means, leave.
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Curtis - 7/22/2015 12:01 PM
From RAWalker: I don’t want anyone to think there is any debate about this subject. I’ve never felt compelled to actively moderate a forum before but in this case I feel strongly to advise our community that Mac’s opinions go against those of the most well thought out opinions on the subject. Simply stated Solo diving does present divers with a higher risk than those who adhere to the buddy system. With proper training and redundant equipment some of those additional risks can be mitigated. I have reported this thread for inaccurate information and am awaiting response as to further action to be taken. I personally favor deleting this thread for safety.

I personally vote against any censorship. Claiming it’s for safety is ludicrous, it’s more like using undue controls in a testosterone competition, a Democratic tactic, not a democratic one.
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tardmaster - 7/22/2015 12:02 PM
From mac1954: Tardmaster have the moral courage to put back my post, put up or shut up.

Morals, courage, honesty, integrity, stones, balls, spine are not lacking in this individual. I, for one sir, did NOT delete/edit ANY of your content.

You’re wrong.........yet again. Although I gave you a point for being consistent, lol.
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Curtis - 7/22/2015 12:08 PM
For the record, not a solo diver, even though I dive triple redundant system (isolation manifolded doubles with stage) with appropriate gasses, am in good health and have above average experience. A good buddy is an important part of the redundant system, and a poor buddy can be a passive redundance.
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RAWalker - 7/22/2015 12:19 PM
Like I stated earlier in the thread...I’ve never felt the need to actively moderate a thread before.
This one is the exception and I have.
Not only have I done so because the information presented was inaccurate but because Mac made it personal with Tardmaster.
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 1:03 PM
Tardmaster, ok I put my hands up if I accused you in the wrong, apologies. But that was the only time I was wrong in this tread, the arguments I put forward were censored therefore people are not been allowed to make there own judgement. Tardmaster is it true I made it personal with you? Will people read back through the posts and tell me who was first to make a personal comment.
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 1:14 PM
Curtis [a poor buddy can be a passive redundancy.] are you planning on stripping your buddy of his gear and using it for yourself.
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 1:19 PM
Latitude I answered all the points you made but my post was censored. I will answer them again if you wish.
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tardmaster - 7/22/2015 3:47 PM
mac,
I can only comment on what I can see. From what is posted I see no personal attack. Maybe there was something personal in the censored post.

"would it not be better to dive alone than not to dive at all?" I think no, but you were asking a question so I will let that one slide.

"there is no reason for a diver to be rescued by another diver" WRONG

"A diver should never become so narced that he needs the assistance of another diver to return to the surface." WRONG. Any number of things can happen to get a diver narced. There is no exact depth that every diver will become narced and a lot of the time divers do not recognize that they are narced.

"Why would you need a redundant air supply? Why would you use all of your air supply? Why would you get to a point when you need rescuing?" So you’re saying you don’t need a redundant air supply? of course you don’t need one, but then again I don’t need a spare tire on my car either, but I it met that I probably loose my life if I didn’t carry one, guess what? there would be a spare tire on my car. Unless i’m so good of a driver that I never run over objects that might flatten my tire or that properly maintained tires NEVER bursts.

"why would you need more than 2 arms or 2 legs, in fact 1 arm or 1 leg is enough for some divers!" Stupid comment. Not even worth explaining that one.

"The only reason a diver may need assistance is a medical emergency, heart attack or something. But that has nothing to do with diving practices," OR SOMETHING ??? that is EXACTLY our point is that things happen beyond our control and training and having someone with you will more times than not give a person a better chance of surviving it.

"You may feel more secure, but that’s a false sense of security." WRONG as I proven with many of my answers above.

"but your decision to dive with a buddy to share the experience is a social one, not a safety one." WRONG as I have proven with many of my answers above.

"if you have a medical emergency underwater 99% of buddies are not going to be able to help" WRONG I personally will not dive with a buddy if I don’t feel like they could handle a situation, medical or not.

"if you have all ready convinced yourself that your going to be narced before you dive, then your going to be narced." WRONG. What a ridiculous statement. So if I user your logic, I can convince myself that I wont get narced, then I wont? Woo Hoo.........down to the Titanic I go !!!

"ego has nothing to do with it, and sarcasm is a very poor argument." WRONG Call it ego, over-confidence, whatever. I think it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sarcasm wasn’t meant as an argument. It was meant to highlight the absurdity of some of your opinion you are try to say are better than our ours.

"safe diving practices are never going to prevent some accidents" WRONG (partially). Safe diving practices will help prevent a ton (not all) of accidents and safe diving practices teach people how to help buddies DEAL with these accidents.

"If I loose consciousness I will have no chance with or without a buddy," WRONG. see my previous past about the Aquarium incident.

"No point talking here as the posts are been censored" WRONG. there is plenty of point to talk here. just try to teach or give advice that could be dangerous to other people. Do not condemn people for their opinion or personally attack people.

"Will people read back through the posts and tell me who was first to make a personal comment." I cannot speak for anyone other than me. I have made no attacking comment other than your asshole stinks........as does mine.

"are you planning on stripping your buddy of his gear and using it for yourself." his point being his buddy’s secondary regulator would a THIRD option to help get him to the surface in case of an emergency.

"Latitude I answered all the points you made but my post was censored. I will answer them again if you wish." I would like to read you responses, provided you responded in a non-threatening manner.

Tag. You’re it.
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mac1954 - 7/22/2015 11:53 PM
Again I will answer the points made by Tardmaster, the post will most likely be censored but anyway. Over a number of decades going back to the seventies we dived the WW1 wrecks on the south coast of Ireland, depths ranged between 130 feet on the SS FOLIA, to 240 feet on the SS PINEWOOD, half a dozen other wrecks fell somewhere between these. All the dives were made with 1 diver in the water on a safety line to a stand by diver in the boat. We recovered tons of non ferrous cargo and machinery, and carried out hundreds of dives . We never had an accident. The viz. could be anywhere from 50 feet to 5 feet. The rescue Tardmaster spoke of was carried out in shallow water, perfect conditions and a controlled environment, this rescue would be impossible in the conditions we worked in. On the subject of narcosis, all the dives were made on air with bottom times from 40 minutes to 20 minutes. To limit the effects of narcosis the dives were built up over the season by slowly increasing depth and shortening bottom times.
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Curtis - 7/23/2015 12:06 AM
From mac1954: Curtis [a poor buddy can be a passive redundancy.: are you planning on stripping your buddy of his gear and using it for yourself.

Since you asked, your statements have ensured you will never get that answer firsthand from me. I don’t want to sensor you, but neither would I dive with you, nor will I continue responding.
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Curtis - 7/23/2015 12:24 AM
From RAWalker: Like I stated earlier in the thread...I’ve never felt the need to actively moderate a thread before. This one is the exception and I have. Not only have I done so because the information presented was inaccurate but because Mac made it personal with Tardmaster.

With those rules, the Annointed One would be frequently sensored.

Maybe I missed it, I did not see Tardmaster complain.

A simple "deleted due to profanity or gross personal attack", if that’s the reason, might fly with me, but I read backpeddling.
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RAWalker - 7/23/2015 12:51 AM
Mac,
Nothing in your posts goes to prove your position and at best it is just anecdotal evidence of your luck. I gave you the name of an organization with real research statistics on the subject. DSAT would be another. Nothing you have stated is definitive proof of anything except what your faulty premise is based upon.

Further I will call it as I see it and based on your own description a 20 minute dive to 240 feet would require decompression which is outside of the scope of recreational diving. I’m going to guess based on this that you are a troll and your statements are fabrications.

I’ll further suggest to fellow members that they follow Curtis’ lead and not respond to you any further. I have left up your last post as it serves to prove our point but in the future I will continue to delete unsupported opinions you present that may be a danger to new divers who can not separate your faulty opinions from the completely substantiated normal practices which have been developed for our safely.
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mac1954 - 7/23/2015 1:05 AM
Curtis, seriously I was joking, I’m sorry the remark was flippant .
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mac1954 - 7/23/2015 1:30 AM
Decompression schedule for dive to the SS PINEWOOD, 3 min. at 40feet, 6min. at 30 feet, 15 min. at 20 feet, 25 min. at 10 feet. Return time was just over 55 min.all decompression was carried out on a station on the dive boat.
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tardmaster - 7/23/2015 8:16 AM
From mac1954: Again I will answer the points made by Tardmaster

you answered none of them.

From mac1954: The rescue Tardmaster spoke of was carried out in shallow water, perfect conditions and a controlled environment, this rescue would be impossible in the conditions we worked in.

you were not talking only your conditions. you were talking ALL diving. I disagree with your statement anyway.

If you have something to say that you feel will get edited, send me a personal message. I’m a big boy, I can take it.
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mac1954 - 7/23/2015 9:07 AM
Hey Tardmaster, my son is doing a masters in science and biology, would really appreciate a chat about the Georgia aquarium, going out to sea tomorrow but will be back on line in a few days.
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Curtis - 7/23/2015 9:25 AM
From mac1954: Curtis, seriously I was joking, I’m sorry the remark was flippant .

Accepted, no offense was taken, nor intentionally given.

I do stand by my comment that assuming you are accurate in your dive philosophy, mine is such that I’d not dive anywhere near you. Simply not compatible and pointless to debate.
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RAWalker - 7/23/2015 9:34 AM
From mac1954: Decompression schedule for dive to the SS PINEWOOD, 3 min. at 40feet, 6min. at 30 feet, 15 min. at 20 feet, 25 min. at 10 feet. Return time was just over 55 min.all decompression was carried out on a station on the dive boat.

And again you make our point. Nothing stated was about decompression diving but diving in general. That said we have far more data on diving to recreational limits and deco diving has a record of far more accidents per dive attempted than those to recreational limits. You are making generalizations that are beyond the training and abilities of the majority of divers in the sport and based on dives not even taken for sport but as working deco dives. I’d also guess what you are not telling us is that a chamber was on site or on standby for many of the dives.
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Curtis - 7/23/2015 9:35 AM
From RAWalker: I will continue to delete unsupported opinions you present that may be a danger to new divers who can not separate your faulty opinions from the completely substantiated normal practices which have been developed for our safely.

This bothers me as much as any of Mac’s comments.
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RAWalker - 7/23/2015 9:46 AM
If you want to tell your stories of your solo deco diving bravado be my guest but tell the whole stories and make it clear the reasons for taking the risk. The level of required training & redundancy should be mentioned. As well the fact that it is opinion and not based in fact and certainly not applicable to all sport divers. The way you presented inferred generally acceptable and with lower risk it is certainly not and not within the scope of recreational diving without specialized training.
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tardmaster - 7/23/2015 10:51 AM
From mac1954: Hey Tardmaster, my son is doing a masters in science and biology, would really appreciate a chat about the Georgia aquarium, going out to sea tomorrow but will be back on line in a few days.

would welcome the chat. Please keep in mind that I’m in the us and in the eastern time zone. have him pm me when he would like to chat or if need I can give him my cell phone number.
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mangoman1 - 7/24/2015 9:39 AM
I will admit that I am a social diver as I enjoy discussions after the dives. I was also taught by my Cavern instructor(Lamar Hires) that solo diving in a cave environment is acceptable and commonplace as there are numerous redundancies in place. He did, however, mention that the benefit of diving with a competent buddy adds something very important. an extra brain to help think through problems that might arise during any dive.
When I dive with someone more experienced than I am, I might just learn something. When I dive with someone less experienced than me, I work on my buddy skills, and THEY might just learn something. Just my $.02.
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Curtis - 7/24/2015 10:18 AM
From Greg: Good, heated discussion everyone...makes for an interesting read :)

Very much agree Greg.

From Greg: I personally prefer diving with a buddy, that’s why I started this website. For me, and for most divers, it’s safer and more fun.

The social aspect of our sport should not be overlooked in this thread, which is why I am here. The diving can unite people from many different age groups, economic & professional backgrounds and political persuasions with a common interest. The added note is sometimes I will socialize quite readily with some I will not join.

From Greg: I do not think posts should be deleted just because they may not be accepted by the majority. Posts with opposite views gives everyone a chance to learn about the issue and make an educated decision for themselves.

Very good.

I, for one, believe that some have a vested interest in "proper education" which drives their outrage. Reality on this discussion is we’re discussing a practice that in most cases has less risk than many other types of recreation and does not directly endanger others.

My only real concern is accidents causing closures, but even for that I blame over-litigation and Big Brother’s need to shield (control) us as the problem (and making money from our fears).

Voluntary self control and conformity to a set of standards, with knowledge and acceptance of consequences, is more to my liking, although I do acknowledge the need for some controls.